No Apologizing

"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." 1 Peter 3:15

Have tongues ceased? The debate…closing arguments


Robert – If we were to look at the most basic argument against tongues and prophecy not existing today it would come down to 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.  It is here that Paul says they will cease:   “8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.”  So then the question becomes, when, and has perfection come?  Kevin has offered two points here.  He states that because tongues is not mentioned in the Epistles after 1 Corinthians that tongues ceased then.  Then he suggested that perhaps the perfection that is mentioned is the canonized Bible.  If we take both of those statements at face value, then there is a time contradiction.  It has to be either or, and cannot be both. 

There is another point that I have to make here because Kevin has eluded to it on several occasions.  The Bible is clear as to how these gifts are to be used.  Tongues/ Prophesy have abusers just as does many aspects of the Bible.  That fact cannot support the argument against tongues and prophecy.  If you were to base any argument based on that rule, then you would have to eliminate several portions of the Bible. 

History has shown that God can move in a number of ways.  Historically, we have to remember the shock waves that were sent by Martin Luther and John Calvin during the reformation.  They were labeled heretics, not true to doctrine. Similar to today, there are those who would deny any reformation or revival because it does not fit into their world view.  A play that would be and possibly is similar to the response of the Catholic Church during the reformation.  If it was possible then, why is it so impossible now?

Kevin – In total, my impression of Robert’s argumentation reminds me of the old adage “where there’s smoke there’s fire”. We all know that’s not true. It’s like Robert’s saying: Smoke doesn’t necessarily mean a current fire… Maybe the fire was put out… nor does a fire truck roaring by – there could be an accident. But when you see a fire truck roaring by, then you look to the horizon and see smoke and then as you get closer to the smoke you feel heat most reasonable people would say that there is most likely a fire… What’s most reasonable?

1 Corinthians 13 doesn’t say when tongues will cease… so, I guess, they could maybe still be current. Silence in scripture about sign gifts for the most part doesn’t necessarily  mean that 1 Corinthians 13 has been fulfilled… Sign gifts disappearing almost completely off the scene historically from after the apostolic era until about 100 years ago (except in rare and dubious circumstances) isn’t an air-tight case against the biblical validity of their current manifestation – maybe God had no use for them then (why does He need them now?)… But, when you take all these into account… Where there’s fire trucks, and smoke and intense heat… What’s more reasonable… Fire or maybe no fire?

Look… If Robert’s point is to argue that God CAN assign the sign gifts to Christians in the modern era, I will concede the debate – God CAN do anything He wants. However, if he is trying to talk about what happens currently then the history of how this doctrine came to be debated in modern times needs to be examined. Now, to be fair, Robert has divorced himself from groups who have propagated sign gifts in a way that is inconsistent with 1 Corinthians 14. The problem is that the modern practice of tongues and “prophetic words” had resurgence and kept momentum due in large part to groups and theologians who, by and large,  do not conform to biblical mandates regarding how they should be used (see 1 Corinthians 14) and/or make them an additional requirement for salvation (a notation that is clearly unbiblical). Again, this IS NOT Robert’s position, however the modern manifestation of sign gifts are, to use a law term, fruit from the poison tree. This wouldn’t even be an issue had the current manifestations not happened.  

In looking at the whole picture to determine our present circumstances, one must examine Scripture (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, among others); look at the silence in the scriptures about this issue after Paul said that they would stop; look at the historical use of spiritual gifts in total; look at the history of the use of these gifts in light of 1 Corinthians 14 and then ask themselves: What’s more reasonable and logical? That the sign gifts took an 1800+ year hiatus and are now completely valid. Has God left 1800+ years of Christians without some key revelations that He is just now revealing to these generations? Should we assume that God is erratic or inconsistent or schizophrenic since the end of the apostolic era? Or should we take 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 at face value; cling to the fact that the Bible is perfect and sufficient for instruction and prophecy; and trust that God has been consistent in the post-apostolic era? Which position is more logical and reasonable?

Overall, however, I think a focus on the “powers” of the Holy Spirit is a bit misguided. I think a better focus (especially in light of how the spiritual gifts lists interplay with the theme of love in 1 Corinthians 13) is for us to focus on the FRUIT of the Spirit (see Galatians 5:22-26). We should use whatever gift(s) God has given us to love one another and to strengthen the church and to point others to Jesus. Let’s do a better job of that and leave the secondary/tertiary issues alone until we get the primary stuff down cold. Let’s focus on how the Holy Spirit empowers us to live a godly life and then submit to His leadings. Robert and I have done our best to do that in our own lives and in our friendship with one another in spite of our differences on this topic.

Advertisements

8 responses to “Have tongues ceased? The debate…closing arguments

  1. jnealp May 7, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    Ok… here goes my portion.

    You guys are quite obviously much more advanced in theology and apologetics than I am. I’m not going to try to argue with you on that stuff. I am going to tell you that there is no way that you can tell me that what I have experienced in my life is not of God. You just can’t. Then, to label me a heretic because I speak in tongues, believe in prophecy, and receive every gift from the Holy Spirit that He has for me is offensive and insulting. (I’m not trying to say that you are labeling me a heretic, but just in case someone reading this might go down that road…)

    I’ll be the first to say there have been abuses and continue to be abuses of the gift of tongues and prophecy; however, I know many people who have come to Christ from the proper use of such gifts.

    I know that you guys could chew me up and spit me out about this stuff. That is why I am reading and doing my homework for myself. Thank you for having this debate and causing me to build my knowledge on the subject.

    • kbthejesusfreak May 7, 2010 at 3:45 pm

      Neal,

      We appreciate your input. I’d never lable someone a heretic over this subject, unless, of course, they insist that demonstrating sign gifts are some sort of requirement for salvation, because that would then be messing with the sola fide (i.e. faith alone) equation for salvation. In fact, I almost had to be dragged into this debate kicking and screaming, because it is such a peripheral issue to me.

      I also shy away from arguing against experience… I take the stance that I wasn’t there so I don’t know everything that surrounded any particular exprience… Plus personal experience is just that: Personal. And again, I firmly believe that God CAN do whatever He wants.

      To me the biggest deal in this issue is what are we going to focus on? Should we strive after and seek debated points of doctrine or should we seek to fully understand and obey what is biblically clear? Are we striving to be more like Jesus and act more like Him? Are we loving people? Are we sharing our faith? Are we standing for God’s word?

      I don’t begrudge or look down upon my more charismatic friends – if their experience helps them to follow after God better… AWESOME! I just ask that they not begrudge me or look down on me (and others like me) as less spiritual just because I find these gifts to be unnecessary for the Body of Christ today (and inconsistant with my understanding of scripture). I hope you/they can see cessationists, like me, as equal brothers/sisters in Christ with an equal opportunity and responsibility to make an impact for the Kingdom of God.

      I can say one thing for certain: If we can all love and respect each other in spite of our differences on this issue we will be much more effective for the cause of Christ.

      I’m praying that how Robert and I handled this debate will demonstrate that kind of cooperation and have that kind of effect.

      Grace and Peace to you and everyone reading this,
      Kevin

  2. jnealp May 7, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    wait a minute… I just saw this.

    Kevin, could you explain what you meant by the modern manifestation of sign gifts being “fruit from the poison tree”?

    I shall wait on your response before I jump to conclusions.

    • kbthejesusfreak May 7, 2010 at 3:55 pm

      That’s probably a poor choice of words… I was trying to make a metaphor. Let me try to clarify.

      What I mean is this:
      A strong piece of evidence, for me personally, supporting the cessationist view is that the abuses you spoke of in your earlier comment are/have been perpetrated by a good portion of the people that support/have supported the interpretation that allows for modern manifestations of the sign gifts (including the earliest groups that brought this issue to the forefront). If the ones who started this movement (and have kept it going) didn’t do so in a biblical manner it causes me to pause and question the veracity of their logic.
      Does that make sense?

      • kcbob May 7, 2010 at 3:58 pm

        No it really doesn’t Kevin. You know I objected to this before. Not sure why you insist on lumping those who follow the doctrine of tongues with those who don’t. As I told you in regards to this matter…

        You cannot impute their sins on me or anyone else. Just on them.

  3. kcbob May 7, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    Neal…don’t let him fool you. There was no dragging or kicking to get him involved with this. He INSISTED on a reponse to my Holy Spirit post, because he felt like his side needed to be heard…

    I am glad you liked this.

    • kbthejesusfreak May 7, 2010 at 3:59 pm

      Come on Bobby… You know I didn’t want to broach this topic… I said we should leave it alone.

      But at the same time I couldn’t let you put something out there I completely disagreed with without giving the other side of the issue.

      Hey, I’m glad we did it now… It was fun… and I hope we showed how we can disagree in an agreeable way!

  4. Pingback: TOP TEN posts for for our year! « No Apologizing

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: