I have a hard time limiting the ability of God to allow someone to speak in tongues or prophesize. The whole Bible demonstrates various ways that the Holy Spirit moves. None of them are identical.
Robert – God is capable of doing anything that is not contradictory to Himself. Allowing these powers to continue on today is not a contradiction to any Bible verse. If God wants people to speak in tongues, He can and will make that happen.
Kevin – Rest assured. No one is trying to limit what God can or cannot do – You or I certainly could not even if we tried. Beyond that, I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. Of course the Holy Spirit does things differently with different people, just look at 1 Corinthians 12:4-6: Gifts are used in different ways to serve the Church and those different means of service are worked out differently by each individual. I have a hard time getting my brain and heart around the concept of Hell… Does that make it any less real… any less biblical? Of course not. God said that tongues and prophecy would cease – Why because He couldn’t sustain them… Again, of course not!
No one is questioning God’s ability to give the gift of tongues or prophecy to people, rather the question is whether He does give people the gift of prophecy and tongues. God could give people any number of abilities… the question is not can He, but why would He? The same has to be asked of tongues and prophecy, especially in light of the fact that (in spite of your dismissing 1 Corinthians 13:8-10) He said He would stop giving those gifts at some point.
One more thing that needs to be pointed out… we need to clarify what we are talking about when we mention prophecy… I am NOT talking about the simple bold proclamation/preaching of the Word of God, but rather the supernatural ability to accurately predict the future – i.e. reveal an, before unforeseen portion of God’s plan. Claiming that gift is still needed is, in essence, claiming that the Bible is incomplete and inadequate – it is saying that God has not sufficiently revealed His plan and intentions for mankind and the earth. I have a hard time limiting the completeness and perfection of the Scriptures that way.
Omission of the prophecy/tongues gifts from the Epistles is NOT admission they have stopped.
Robert – My understanding of the Epistles is that they are not a complete look at God. They were written to answer very specific issues for the growth of specific churches that allow us to learn. There is theology involved but it is specifically aimed at specific circumstances. Paul wrote ad nauseam about tongues in 1 Corinthians (Chapters 12, 13 and 14). Then it seemingly disappears. That to me is not an indication that tongues ceased… rather, to me it could indicate Paul instructed his students so well that it was no longer an issue.
This issue ties in with the previous issue in my mind. How about this… Perhaps there was no need for tongues or prophecy during those previous revivals. I mean let’s be honest here… what would have happened during the medieval age if someone was speaking in tongues? They would have been drawn and quartered or tried as a witch. Would it make more sense for the Holy Spirit move in a way that was conducive to the environment? My answer would be yes.
Kevin – Robert brings up an interesting point… Why did Paul quit talking about how the sign gifts should be regulated? Why do the other NT writers not address the topic? The burden of proof is upon Robert to demonstrate why this topic drops off the face of the earth after Paul says that tongues will cease, if it’s not because they HAVE ceased.
Robert – To answer your other question… Why do the other NT writers not address the topic? Speaking of hermeneutics you of all people should know that the Epistles are not a complete theology. These books are Paul and Peter addressing specific theological issues as they arose. To say that because there is an absence of issue there is an absence of power is insane. I may not talk to my wife about a communication for months…it doesn’t mean that we aren’t communicating. Seriously, Kevin! Your Pastor may not talk about regeneration for a year…it doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit has stopped! Burden of proof is on you Kevin because neither of us contest that tongues were there. You say they simply stopped because they were no longer talked about…Prove it.
Kevin – I never said that they “simply stopped because they weren’t talked about”. I said that Paul said they would stop, THEN shortly after, he stopped talking about it. This is a classic attempt at twisting my words. I’m not going to hang the entire debate on an argument from silence. There’s any number of possible reasons as to why God didn’t speak about these gifts elsewhere, but the silence coupled with 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 and history make it pretty clear as to why. You have to take the argument in context and in light of the rest of the debate. Also, shame on any pastor who would not talk about salvation for a whole year… they’d be completely ignoring the Great Commission – I’d not be a part of a church like that – that’s ludicrous.
1 Corinthians 13 does not mean that tongues/prophecy stopped in the apostolic era.
Robert – There is no date or time stamp assigned to 1 Corinthians 13:8. There is only the vague reference offered in verse 9 that states when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. There is only one perfection: God. Since perfection has not come… then one could argue that these gifts have not ceased.
Kevin – If “tongues and prophecies will (have) ceased” is not what 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says, then, what does it say? One cannot say that something with seemingly plain meaning doesn’t mean what it plainly seems to mean without offering a plausible suggestion as to what it DOES mean. The text clearly states tongues (one of the “sign gifts”) will cease – the questions are when and why?
You say that the only thing that is perfect is God. What about God’s word (i.e. the Bible)? I would suggest that in light of Hebrews 2, the “perfect” thing spoken of in 1 Cor. 13 is the canon (i.e. the 66 books we call the Holy Bible). Once all the books of the Bible were written and in circulation there was no need for miraculous validation of what was being taught, because by and large early church leaders exclusively taught from the writings that soon after became the “Holy Bible.” These teachings (and the letters from which they came) had already been validated and accepted as truth. Given your high view on the Bible (see your previous post on biblical inerrancy) I am surprised you do not consider the Bible perfect!
Robert – Kevin you want to talk about putting words in someone’s mouth! I said God was perfect. I figured that you would know this… that if God is perfection, his word is also. Lets not be ridiculous.
Kevin you can’t have it both ways. Did tongues and prophecy end with the apostolic era (approx 33 A.D – 100 A.D) or did they end with the canonization of the New Testament (approx 374 AD)? If you believe that it ended when perfection came (canonized bible) then that is well beyond the apostolic era. If you believe they ended with the apostolic era then what is perfection and when did it come?
Kevin – Actually, I’m not trying to have it both ways. The epistles and books that became the Bible were in wide circulation well before the formal settling of the cannon. The cannon was settled upon (through God’s direction) the miraculous and wondrous signs that helped confirm the validity and authority of the apostles and other church leaders, was no longer required, because they were already accepted as scripture (check out 2 Peter 3:15-16). The acceptance of the cannon supports the idea that prophecy had ceased because the church fathers in 374 AD determined that there was no further revelation that was required past Revelation (widely considered the last of the biblical books to be written), and they therefore closed the canon. Further “revelation” and “prophecy” had not occurred from the end of the apostolic era (approximately 85-86 AD) through 374 AD when the canon was finalized – this is STRONG evidence for the cessation of the type prophecy you are advocating.
Why again would it cease? Because we have the only source needed to know with certainty what God wants and requires. There is no need for further “prophesies” (foretelling of the future of the Church), or revelations, etc. Because God has already given us enough material to chew on and apply in our lives – the Bible is complete, and perfect and sufficient for one to study without supplement – all other theological instruction should be commentary upon God’s Word, not addition to it – this is where many cults get in trouble (i.e. Mormons, Muslims…) by saying that the Bible is insufficient and needs to be added to and/or correction – that is what both Joseph Smith and Mohamed claimed. But hey, if you think the Bible is inadequate for instruction and that God needs to reveal more prophecies, knock yourself out – I just can’t go there.
The lack of historical evidence of prophecy/tongues/healing in historical revivals does not mean that they have ceased, it only means that perhaps God had no use for it then.
Robert – I look at it this way… If historically a group of people thought that the earth was flat, would they live their lives according to that idea? If, historically, men are closed off to the idea that there is healing/prophecy/tongues would they exist? The fact that tongues/prophecy was not used previously for revivals does not mean that they no longer exist. As I have already established…There is no repetitive nature to the Holy Spirit. What is good for one age/revival may not have been good for another. God knows what will work and when it will work. Not you.
Kevin – This argument of Robert’s doesn’t hold water. God predicted that at some point sign gifts would cease. Then they disappear off the scene for like 1800+ years only to be resurrected and we are supposed to just accept that God has suddenly, without reason or precedent decided to start granting the gifts of tongues and prophecy? In Acts, tongues were used to validate certain movements of the Spirit and yet there are no records of tongues during the Reformation or prophecies of that movement beforehand. One would think that these would be immeasurably useful to legitimize the massive changes taking place in Christianity… And yet, nothing. Strange.
Another thing Robert fails to answer is: Why tongues now? Why additional prophecy now? Robert’s only defense is “Why Not?” I don’t know why God chose to inspire Paul to write 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. I don’t know why God has done or refrained from doing a lot of the things He has, and I don’t worry myself with much of it – His ways are higher than mine. However, in light of Christian History, Scripture, and the history of the manifestation of spiritual gifts and the circumstances surrounding the relatively recent resurgence of tongues and prophecies these current manifestations are dubious at best.